Sandy: You believe what it says to you, and the Protestants believe what it says to them. (MK)This is a very vague, generalized statement. This is DISHONEST folks! Where have you been? to polarize and rally support. 2) While said random posters include those with a less-than-charitable bend (and I make no excuses for them). Someone even went so far as to register his name jamesrwhite.org and then point the site to Catholic Answers. righteousness of God, which is without works of any sort, But to him Until I read his homepage, I didnt know he seems so hateful and immature. We dont have to follow the Ten Commandments. The original post by James White was outrageous and disgusting. On the one hand you are right that theological and ecclesiological issues are very important, and it would be wrong for an apologist to always pick out personal or rhetorical flaws in their opponent to avoid debate on the real issues. But in these discussions, when serious questions of historical transformation of dogma over time call into question the truth claims of Rome, and sting the conscience of those who genuinely seek truth, the reaction of throwing the messenger to the dogs while ignoring the message, and then calling that charity, is maddenly frustrating to watch. Here are some Algo had posted a few quotes that demonstrate, as all rational historians recognize, that dogmas like purgatory developed over time, and hence, are not apostolic in origin. Afterall, the societal paradigm for the last half century often seems to be: Nazis are evil; All Germans are Nazis; Therefore all Germans are evil. Im not trying to offend you but, thats not pertinent, what about the points made. Name Server:NS.DEWDESIGNS.COM Admin Phone:+1.9512424988 Does Belief in the Trinity Necessitate Polytheism? (Also, its of note that White makes it clear that the quality of the mediated knowledge held by the recipient is dependent on the intent of the author. Look at the 08/08/2007 entry in Dr. Whites blog here: http://www.aomin.org The second that both sides have fielded very weak and odd arguments. You have to neccessarily assume all Muslims are terrorists in order to draw the conclusion that these, in the picture, must be, despite no evidence pointing to the affirmation of such an assumption. How can you think youre right when you dont know what right is? He is a moron not of necessity (for that would not be something to be held against him), but rather a moron of convenience. Insignificant: authors frequently use an idea gleaned from someone else without remembering that they even read it somewhere else. But HOW does he do this? He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions. And most of the people dont come here to debate. Hmmmand his use of Romanism, etc, merely proves that he is indeed an anti-catholic by defintion even though he doesnt like that term applied to himself. Russian Orthodox? And, it is becoming obvious, you were just trying to make a fight. Please do not post comments on that thread, particularly comments disguised as prayers. But I would ask you to consider, carefully, what you say. He is not functioning as a rational agent on this topic. Maybe you think calling Mr. White names and running discussions according to a made up law is engaging in appropriate discussion methods. Please Lord God, heal the wounds he once received by the wrongful acts of someone else. Perhaps you should go look up slander before you come around here trying to slander me. Can you get off this tangent and actually make a point? Why dont you just summarize it for me, if you think it has bearing on this issue. They are self-centered, not Christ-centered. White did not lose. Keep in mind that the Catholic Church is not a person, its the church founded by Christ. Remember the last time you *actually* did not know whether to laugh or cry? So, was he saying that Roman soldiers came back from the dead? Ive backed up every single one of my accusations, blatantly going against the grain of the general tone around here. you think youre right However, the Bible sets forth a pattern of charity: confronting evil, treasuring prophetic rebuke, valuing- and practicing truthTelling and truthSeeking A person who does this whether correct or mistaken loves me, cares about me, and wants to help me grow closer to Jesus Christ. It is wrong to do evil that good may come of it. canon contains 1+ n books known only to Author The intention of the radical Muslim who beheads is to bring death to those whom they disagree with. This is a very vague, generalized statement. He has been married since 1982 and has two children and five living grandchildren. Thats been refuted time and time again. St. Paul said I dont want there to be confusion. How (historically and logically) did God reveal this Canon and the Scriptures to his flock? If you pass judgement on me because I havnt gone along with a happy-go-lucky attitude the whole time then guilty as charged. When attention stops being paid, the screaming escalates. Then of course you have the Protestant disdain of the material; irrational and unbiblical though it may be. Has the Quran Been Accurately Transmitted? Honestly. More ad hominem. Apparently, my dad doesnt count if dad knew computers well enough to do web sites and got wind of this White guy, hed probably set up a forward to a site that tears his arguments to shreds. Your idea that Roman Catholics were killing your people for hundreds of years and then a *few* bad apple Protestants killed some people in return is so unhistorical that one doesnt know where to begin. I wasnt aware Wikipedia was an authoritative source in any arena, including theological debate. The Revelation of Zechariah Zack Morgan functions as the pastor of local outreach as well as serving with Pastor Jeff and Pastor Luke as they go about caring for the flock day in and day out. I fully deny that we would wish to chop off his head. Acts 13:38&39 We spent a lot of time analyzing why Don Imus was fired, but Sarah Silverman goes on, why some find Imus funny, and why some go ballistic when they hear him it has to do with what the Germans call reception geschichte how a performance act is received by various audiences, over time. 1:11). I get it now. What can I say to that, in clear conscience? Outside of the basic understanding that these letters represent the state of these local churches in the first century, others have viewed them as representing ages of the church down Last evening I spent a few hours talking with a former Christian, now a skeptic. Andrew Rappaport had me join him for the discussion, which I thought was going to be more on the history of the NT, manuscripts, etc., but turned out to be a more general theres A new book has dropped by a convert to Roman Catholicism, R.R. Just how have I lied, CareBear? Which is to say: Mr White is embarrassing himself out of a need to save face at all costs. Well, I am a reasonably intelligent person and more than that, I do happen to be am an expert on humor theory, the logic of humor, and the theology of humor (an infant and by no means settled field in humor research). Name Server: The Laments for Josiah[20] James White is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. You are wrong about me judging Dr Beckwiths thoughts BTW. QUICK!!!! Thats something I never denied, but, in fact, thats the reason I posted. Given that you keep referring to James Whites arguments all the time, I think TeddyRuxpin would be a better handle. When we apply these considerations to Scripture, we are able to see that canon (infallible) is a neccessary result of Gods freely chosen act of inspiration. Don Imus intended his racist comment about nappy-headed h*s as a joke. Acts 15:1, And certain men which came down from Judaea Now, Mary, logic is uncharitable! (And of course by that I mean owning up to one.) Confessing to a Priest has Biblical basis; confessing to God personally does not. Name Server:NS5.DEWDESIGNS.NET and, here, accuse Jimmy Akin and Crew that were the ones responsible for this act. (By the way, wheres your reply to my interaction with your question? UPDATE: The above pictures are so vile, particularly in light of 9/11 and the ensuing history and those who have been threatened or killed by radical Muslims, that this should be a matter upon which individuals of all confessional affiliations should be able to agree, including Evangelicals. It says CY has only 426. How about if I made a similar analogy between your parents and loved ones and the 9/11 terrorists??? Based on that information, one can then assume that CA is obsessing over White a bit too much which, lets be honest, does fit the general attitude of those around here. 8am to 5pm MST Dr. Beckwith has not made anything personal, but it seems everyone, and especially James White, sure has made it personal. However, no matter how infallible God is, us men are fallible. Putting aside the merits of an important debate, its telling that Dr. Geisler also expresses dismay with Whites tone. It is vile. So I was finishing up my 21st conference at Covenant of Grace Church in St. Charles when I heard people talking about the coming storm. So I started looking at the weather and my travel plans. Your suggestion of Whites book, btw, is I think more profitable to getting across your view than anything else. Or else, call upon the powers of RAINBOW BRIGHT or HELLO KITTY or whatever effeminate character you wish to be saved by! Ah well. If you had taken the time to examine CareBears comments, you would see that he is judging James Whites innocence merely on the basis of this one post of Jimmy Akin alone. Pity. She was responding to a very silly post, given that anyone who even half-heartedly scanned the comments here could clearly see that a large number are not indignation. on his lack of charity when they cant be charitable themselves. Philip, presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See, said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: Our holy and most blessed Pope Celestine the bishop is according to due order his successor and holds his place.Accordingly the decision of all churches is firm, for the priests of the eastern and western churches are present.Wherefore Nestorius knows that he is alienated from the communion of the priests of the Catholic Church. Dave Armstrong wasnt stoned to death for doing that. How could you! What a weak excuse Johnathan. I know I dont always). I know that a great deal of technical analysis is left out, here. Most especially, thank you for the defense of Mr. Akin and all of his defenders. Certainly the Catholic Church has its share, as does any very large body of people, unfortunately. OK. Were mean. The reality is, these men have no *consistent* way of disambiguating , . Let us pray for each other! This makes the heart of men capable of being the only truly god-forsaken country. He was not amused at all and later ripped me up on his no comment blog. White hung up on me after having specifically invited me to discuss a particular subject, evidently because he just didnt like me, calling me smug and arrogant. No, you were responding in a manner that changed the topic from whom one should confess to into a highly complex question of my personal religious state as compared to that of the Twelve. That is total heresy! This is a rather convient way to win a debate without ever having to defend a word you say. Admin Postal Code:92517 His revelation? One must wonder, if Dr. White truly feels it necessary to be nasty to people and use biting sarcasm and insultswhy doesnt he do that in his books or scholarly articles? I guess were all waiting for something I had hoped not, because Whites action is indefensible. The Circuits and Teachings of the Apostles I despise James White and think he writes at the level of a college Sophomore (maybe a little better), but the pictures didnt offend me. I have four of my own to get in bed. My web name is acutally much more personal than my given name, since there are over 500 people will my name Amanda Hicks and at least 200 who are named Amanda L. Hicks. Ive been defending the posting of these pictures.. Perhaps we should go above and beyond on showing him the love Christ demands Does the Quran Misrepresent Christianity? So while it is true there is such a thing as the sin of omission, we have to remember that prudence and patience are virtues as well. There have been some wonderful posts with many great insights (at least for me personally). Im not to apt to jump on the conspiracy train as you are. Why did He choose not to so do? Im rolling laughing right now at the ignoring of the points raised and the new points being purported like the earlier ones arent even there or assuming they are defacto wrong. Taking my word that Im right is something I wouldnt want anyone to do, thats why I back up what Im saying. Its because they are the ones chosen by the ones chosen by the ones chosen (etc) by Christ. Please dont post anonymously. I would be doing a disservice to my collegues who have spent their lives trying to understand humor and its effects if I did not speak for at least part of the humor community. Statement of Faith Foxfier, There is no such correlation between the two, as anyone with the faintest grip on history can say. Are. If James Whites position is so biblical what is is he hiding behind? But its starting to look to me like almost everyone who White squares off against winds up feeling personally offended. I feel if I quote anymore Dr. White is going to sue me. Prophetic? This does not mean that White does not know anything. The no name is me. St. Paul himself refers to the Church as built upon the foundation of the Apostles (Eph. Finally, White uses quotes when referring to Beckwiths title as a doctor. The Assumption of Moses He had even gone to the extent of condescendingly putting down Foxfire, ridiculing her, as well as those who would defend Akin, who is but an Internet Apologist. Not to mention facile. Further, most laws we know of in advocacy and argumentation is made-up; yet, that doesnt mean they do not apply. how only through the Catholic church can one be saved, by no other means I wonder if thatll be dealt with as well?) Thank you James White, and God bless you. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.. The Prophecy of Ahijah[9] after continuing to escalate when several people asked to tone this down, Im a lurker here, ordinarily, but by the nature of the topic of this thread, I thought I might say something (I am sorry for any formatting problems I rarely post in comboxes). If anything, you are actually guilty of the fallacy of neglected evidence as you have failed to consider (to the extent of even overlooking) evidence that is likely to be relevant to the argument here such as elements in the debate itself between White v. Beckwith. I do not defend these pictures, but I understand what he was trying to say; those who cry for charity should not do so by calling the intended subject of their request moronic, stupid, childish, and much worse. Whats interesting to note is that Jimmy Akin doesnt surreptitiously erase the errors hes made on this blog unlike others Ive observed in the past. Many people can express frustration quite effectively without resorting to photos like those. May we be made ever more like Him, even through our resistance. Gee, CareBear, werent you paying attention to my comments??? In 1930 and to an academic audience, Dr. Whites two examples might have been a generally effective way to say to such a large and diverse crowd that he were frustrated at the remarks that some blogging Catholics had thrown his way (if the internet had magically existed, then). The last 20 years hes walked with the Lord, hes had numerous roles and functions in the local church which have all led his family to Phoenix and then to Apologia to wholeheartedly serve and pour out their lives for the sake of the gospel of the Kingdom. I spoke on the topic of the eternal law of progression in Mormonism in Anchorage this morning. Z est X. Fallacious though that may sound. What? [9], White served as an elder of Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church in Phoenix, Arizona, from 1998 until 2018. Islamist= radical Muslim, not to be confused with the non-murderous Muslims. I think you are right about the point of this thread and I wouldnt even think of arguing your analysis of the humour or lack of humour in Dr. Whites posts. It is his choice. Now you may say, Oh what about the Cathars? or some other group, and yes, there were religious persecutions before the Reformation, but various reasons the Reformation unleashed the whirlwind. Otherwise, we should have known nothing at all about it. Intent is not dispositive. I didnt say your personal determination was right. [16], White is a Baptist[1] and a Calvinist. How about the guy who accused Dr White of multiple errors and deceptions with regards to the teachings of Rome and then phoned in to say he needed to do three months of research to come up with even one. It was very gracious of you to paint Dr. White as an Islamic fundamentalist. But that said, take his substance as substance. Oh, since people have started posting random biblical quotes, I thought I would join in. There phone # is (951) 242-4988. Dr. White welcomes your calls at: God wrote Hebrews, divinely inspiring the author (disputed though that individual may be). (Though the laughter is gaining the upper hand at the moment. The third is that both have slung mud. 10:16). Ella Incorrect, since it is logical to conclude that those who do not do a thing to assume they are either unable or unwilling. It would have been wrong and far worse to have pictures of people who are obviously Catholic holding up such signs. Ok, now lets see how youre going to prove that Carebear didnt consider ANY of the evidence. This is a little not nice, but: re: Gwens differentiation between disciples +/- apostles who forgive: there is a movement within protestantism that we confess our sins to one another and receive forgiveness. The lonely hermetic cell is calling him to quiet, prayerful contemplation and he is running from the silence where the voice of God resides. Spent a few moments at the start of todays program looking at a clip from Sam Gipp where he says all translational decisions were finished and completed in 1611, something the KJV translators would have righty mocked. the horrors of the uncritical acceptance of Romes claim to authority What Does a Christian Need to Know About Islam? Im I expect this from him and other anti-Catholics. And now White & Co. has become the new cartoonists to the riots of people on this forum. I used to think that Whites contention with Rome was theological in nature but I am beginning to see that it is deeper than that. We have been sucked into it because White needed something else to direct his attention to. He has authored or contributed to more than twenty four books, including The King James Only Controversy, The Forgotten Trinity, The Potters Freedom, The God Who Justifies and What Every Christian Needs to Know About the Quran. The Confressions, chapter 12 The Voice as of a Child. Akin does himself a disservice with this post because it simply added weight to Whites charge of double standard. Akin should consider the charity he expects White to display, and then display that in his own posts. Youre again committing that same category error. When did you authoritatively establish what His revelation is? Chuckto the extent charity isnt shown to Dr. White, Id agree. Do you also REJECT all those books that the Catholic Church rejected as NOT being part of that New Testament Canon? Oh, and I see White has followed the template over at his blog: (1) stir up trouble with a bonehead statement; (2) act the victim when called on it; (3) change the subject by proffering some hobbyhorse topic/argument; (4) shake his head sadly while professing his allegiance to the Gospel [sic] and noting his opponents assumed allergy to the same; and (5) claim victory, after noting throughout, sotto voce, his obvious merits. Those who share a certain world view (i.e., who are not emotionally invested in the context) might find the joke text humorous, but not other groups. Jessica if you feel a need to forgive myself and the host of this site for being Catholic, go for it. That would be nice. For fair disclosure, I am Catholic, but humor research is an international affair and I interact with scholars of many faiths. Tell me did James White even deal with the issues? Probably the same way the Romanists decided. The Psalms of Solomon 3. In that post, Jimmy links to http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0309bt.asp : *YAWN* If were going to play that game though, please prove to me James White was aware that the pictures would yield said results and that he didnt post them in jest, as on that premise rests all the argument of your wolf criers and alarm monkies. heresy as not believing in repentance is ignorant. I will, therefore, just urge you 1] to grow deeply in the love and truth of the Lord Jesus Christ, bearing Gods fruit in every field of your life. Also, I remember one of the Sungenious debates one where he lashed out angerily at White repeatedly and White kinda toned down his boldnes, so to speak, as to say that he didnt want the debate to turn into a slug fest. He is the author of more than twenty books, a professor and an accomplished debater. This is a rather convient way to win a debate without ever having to defend a word you say. Even Paul lost his cool on one occasion (though I dont recall reading the apology anywhere hmmm, maybe its between him & God?). The Question is, can they do anything about it? Mr Akin should debate Mr White and quit hiding behind excuses. Spent over an hour today digging deep into church history in light of the vital importance of sola scriptura. No such sign was given to the dead hierarchy of Jesus day but the resurrection of Jesus Himself, and it is still the best expression of why primitive, authentic Christianity cannot be equated to a particular denomination. Rather than deal with this, some play every which way but loose, even to the point of insinuating I did it. (If anyone knows Frank Beckwith, you know thats his style of humor). I sorry that you are offended but its too funny; really. Ooooo-kayyyy. (A quick glance at the content of the comments posted here testifies to this very thing.) For all thats worth. I didnt see that Mary posted just above. Apologies for not being clearer in my statement earlier. Someone registered it and then pointed it to Catholic Answers. More ad hominem. What would you say if I told you that the only logical response to that quoted statement was that you had obviously not never listened to White at all? Its just your usual springboard for the gnostic gobble-de-gook. Its probably best to move on. Thank you Carebear and friends, and God bless you all. Your comments here are dead-on and what I was trying to express rather poorly and without much success Im afraid. And I was directly responding to the content of your post, to correct it. We deserve it! Hey, phone him up and see. Dont you? Theres another Mary here also.). I apologize, especially to Dr. White and to CareBear, for the heavy-handedness of my post above. Well, the only defense you can offer is of someone on this thread having a serious discussion, presumably about the bad behavior of White, given that the topic of both posts have been his bad behavior. Lets try this again. 53 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. We dont *care* what you want to do to slander someone who actually has enough class to make an impassioned, rational speech. Question: if the Bible is 100% Gods Word (as I believe as well), why do we talk about Paul, Peter, Matthew, etc. Dont talk to me about his theological positions or his possible lack of charity in other areas. Certainly his renown is based on apologetics much like Jimmy Akin, but there has to be an overriding concern for souls or its all just hot air and gamemanship. Peter Stravinskas and Bill Rutland should, under penalty of excommunication, never be allowed to interpret the bible publically again, Tim Staples should never be allowed to speak in public,Gary Michuta should do nothing but sit in an infallible silence and on and on. yes Vivat Christi. I was responding to a post by Carebear. 4) Those who had already suggested that James be more kind, as well as some newcomers, suggest once more that he should examine the spirit in which he is writing of Dr. Beckwith. White rips Beckwith, ignoring the likelihood that someones thoughts on a topic may change over time. : CB, It is called Truth. Which was this gathered body that you refer to? If Jimmy had failed in his attempts at humor, I would have been morally bound to repeat the analysis in his case. In my haste to put down my thoughts I just didnt remember to sign the document. How is one reconciled with God? Christ gave them all power and authority, saying, He who hears you hears me: he who rejects you rejects me.(Luke 10:16) and Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven (Matt. The general consensus is that White is an idot and does not know what he is doing. More profitable to getting across your view than anything else discussion methods and an accomplished debater to them served! About Islam though that individual may be include those with a happy-go-lucky attitude the whole then. This, some play every which way but loose, even through our resistance and most the! 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