Just keep it shorter than his response. Philosophy program at Talbot. Good day, Trent. . Steve may not believe thats what the text says, but if it does say that, theres no contradiction in it saying that. But again, this is another argument by exception because even if shes referring back to Hannah, the debate is about how these dogmas, whether or not theyre how theyre used in scripture. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of almighty God and the blessed apostles, Peter and Paul. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. Mary had this early body. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. Oh, wow. I put you on the spot with that, so theres no worries. And just so everybody knows, youre welcome to interrupt him or move the conversation along as you see fit. I mean, its not a good proof text to use. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . Well the thing is, in both cases in the Septuagint and in Lukes gospel, theyre both in the perfect passive of participle, so theyre being used the same way. And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. I mean, actually you and I would agree on this. And yeah, I would just encourage others, Ive always said this, I dont see debates as a way to end an issue. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. Itll change your life, no doubt. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. Lastly, Psalm 69:8 is a messianic verse, I have become estranged from my brothers and an alien to my mothers sons. Because verse nine begins with for, which is a conjunction, meaning because, since, or therefore, indicating that the same Messiah who would experience zeal for your house in verse nine is also the same Messiah whose mother would have other children in verse eight, which prophesied Jesus younger half brothers not believing in him in John 7:3-5 and dishonoring him in Mark 6:3-4, which occurred earlier in Mark 3:20-21 when they accused Jesus of being out of his senses, just as the future King David rebuked his oldest brother. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. She would have to have a heavenly body. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. Yeah, no, Im grateful for Steve to take part in this. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. What he lived by, he died by. Can a person die? And if you take a look at the origin of all three of these dogmas, they all come from either nastic like text or apocryphal literature or [inaudible 01:29:53] literature, like the Protoevangelium of James and elsewhere. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. And weve seen that time and time again, and so Im going to address the other examples that hes just raised. Shameless plug. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? That rather, theres nothing in there to preclude people being assumed body and soul into heaven, including Mary. Thats all I got. Thats kind of hard. All right, so the Bible does not say that Mary committed a sin. Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. See Genesis 35:23, Deuteronomy 21:15, Joshua 6:26, 1 Chronicles 3:1, and Hebrews 11:28, where firstborn is also used this way. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? And Ill leave it at that. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. I have also appeared several . And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. Steve Ray was the third of five children in a family that became Baptist in the 1950s. And she doesnt mention sin in this part of Luke one. The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. As the Protestant scholar J.N.D. And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Steve, youre going to go first with five minutes and then Trent. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. So I think that is highly significant theres something very, very special about Mary in the way that its used along with the words definition. She's on Steve Korrnacki show making excuses to end the Bridgegate commitee investigation she's obviously a Christie apologist . So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. Sure. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. He then went on to kick five field goals in the Bills 29-10 win over the Miami Dolphins in the AFC championship game, helping Buffalo get to their third consecutive Super Bowl. So thats another one. Id have to respond individually. Our two sources of evidence during this period would be Jewish and Christian authors. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. Landlord. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. Maybe a little too much. So were not talking about translations of the Bible. SeanMcDowell.org. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. I dont know how you would feel. And I think that in general, those arguments arent very strong, but in some cases, saying that something is fitting can point us in that direction. This sure is fun, isnt it? Thank you very much, Trent. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. So the protestant reformers like Luther and Zwingly, did they believe Mary was a perpetual Virgin and were they committed to Sola scriptura? And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. Influenced early on by early monasticism, asceticism, and even gnostic-like texts, early Roman Catholics were troubled by how a created sinful fallen creature went on to have other children and could give birth to the sinless Son of God in the flesh. Peels notes in his study of the passage, Jesus is not marking beginning and end points in time but rather is contrasting Abels secret death in the wilderness with Zechariahs public death in the Temple. Does the Bible teach that no human being has ever been assumed into heaven? A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. Sure. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. Jesus does not rebuke her. The same in any intellectual study. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. And I showed in my arguments that his claim that adelphei can only mean uterine sister of the same mother, or figurative, are simply not held up. Mary was able to do something that Jesus didnt. So my point here is clear. Going forward, then, Mark Sorry, Steve tries to say that Mary committed a sin in Mark Three when she and the brothers of the Lord go to see him, but the text doesnt say anything about Mary doing anything sinful. Or Enoch and Elijah who never died because they were assumed alive into heaven. You can see him and others talk about this on the Reason and Theology Channel. Juan R. Vlez This is fantastic. Reply to this thread. Give the person you disagree with a listen, really try to understand where theyre coming from because if after hearing their position, you still disagree with it, at least youll be better informed about what Protestants or Catholics believe so you can better engage them and resist the temptation to attack straw met. Now Steve mentioned and many other Protestants allude to Matthew 1:24-25, which says When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him. We see this in Psalm 69:25. Oh wow. I agree with what that person teaches. Scripture reveals Mary was a Virgin, but conflicts with her being a perpetual Virgin. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. Some Protestants cast out on the Marian Dogmas by claiming they dont appear early enough in church history to count as being apostolic. Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. Im not saying that Jesus is the son of Mary means that shes the only person he bore. He was preceded in death by both his parents. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. You would expect there to be deviations from it. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon - Kindle edition by Christie, Steve. The night before that, we did an examination of conscience together. So it must be used in some other way. Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. And the same is true for us, that Mary was free from sin, but she still had an earthy body. Thank you, Steve. All righty. And even if it wasnt, I dont see the relevance to it. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. Even if God had given you special graces so that you could follow his law, it wouldnt follow that God was also calling you to do something unprecedented in salvation history like to give birth to the Messiah. The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. Since this dogma allows for her to have died before being taken up to heaven, it contradicts the purpose of a biblical assumption. I think it will be. Yeah. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. Also, Paul drew extensively on themes from the deuterocanonical works in his own writings. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. That seems to be something that went without contention. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac" ( Gen 17:20-21 ). So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. In fact, Protestants believe in many doctrines that are not found in scripture like their 66 book cannon of scripture where that public revelation ended in the first century. He was put on a cross. The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? He graduated from UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI / SCHOOL OF MEDICINE in 1995. Im really enjoying this. With the Bills, he would become one of the game's top kickers. Well, not necessarily. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. Thats fair. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. Sponsored by SaltLending.com and Epic.Tech. Would you agree with Jerry [Maditix 01:04:38] that the assumption of Mary was an eyewitness account just as Jesus ascension was? Lets take a look here. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. Okay. And what I would say here is that I agree that use of [inaudible 01:22:20] in Luke 1:28 does not prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Just today, Hallow uploaded my Lo-Fi music to their app. So this first question is for both of you, well start with Trent and then Steve, this comes from Estaban. Both the Old and the New Testaments also use firstborn to indicate firstborn among other siblings, such as Esau being Isaacs firstborn and Ruben as Jacobs first born, meaning they were not firstborns out of their fathers wombs, considering men dont have wombs, but firstborn among their other children. The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. This is really great. [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). Thank you very much, Trent. Should we baptize babies or not? Yeah. I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. Well done. Ive crowned myself king, and I demand it. What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. He says, this is a question for Steve. If anything, Revelation chapter 12 verses one through six describes Mary being in heaven. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. For example, it may be a reference to the minor prophet Zechariah (who was killed in the temple according to the Targum on Lamentations) as opposed to the Zechariah in Chronicles. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. The claim that Mary did not give birth to other children because Jesus is called the son of Mary. No, Bauckham talks about this in his article that in some context, Jesus would be referred to as the son of Joseph, especially among those who were not familiar with his family life in Nazareth. And then Steve, what are some objections you hear from Protestants to Catholics that you dont think are good? While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. The Buffalo Bills officially signed Christie to a one-day contract, thus to retire as a Buffalo Bill. And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. Christian apologist accused of denying fundamental truths. They would be sons from another marriage. When Ive seen people in the chat say things like, Wouldnt you make your mother perfect? I dont like that argument. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. So do it. It comes from agoyforJesus who Im now beginning to assume is your co-laborer. All right. Just as we have born the image of the earthy we, which includes Mary, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. We and also, which again includes Mary. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. Get your complimentary mortgage payment estimate* Apply Now. Paul is not trying to make a statement about every single individual without exception. No. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. And of course, he might say, Well, what about Jesus? Well, as I mentioned, the Bibles explicit that it says that Jesus is an exception. And something else that the Pope says in the declaration is not infallible. He became sinner. Yeah. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. Apologetics for the Masses #365 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part II. When the Bible talks about all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, as I mentioned in my opening statement, its a Greek word pas, which means, everyone, which would include Mary. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. The importance of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them. For example, in Hebrews 9:27, it says that it is appointed for men to die once and then face judgment and this is true for basically every single human being whoever lived, except for some exceptions like Lazarus and people that Jesus raised from the dead who died twice. But Mary only had a human nature and a sinful nature. Okay. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. Okay. Well, in your example, its talking about father. Okay. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive story. Yeah, no, fair enough. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. Isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion. Yeah. Tweet: 0 replies, 655 views. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. No, he was free from sin, but he still had a mortal human nature that could be subject to death. All right. And they did not want people following them. It follows that Mary is the mother of God. So while not common, it is used. And my contention is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, he would not have died. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. If she were sinless, what would happen to her if she-. While Mary is a conceived in sin creation. Back to top Alert abuse. It can mean half-sister, stepsister, sister-in-law.. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. It doesnt even imply that. Okay. In Super Bowl XXVIII, Christie set a Super Bowl record by kicking a 54-yard field goal. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. But the immaculate conception was declared 15 years or so before that. I think it says a lot about you all that you would take your time, all 735 of you, to be here. Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. And also I know others whove done a lot of work on this. But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. Okay. Lets start with the last books of the Protestant Old Testament, which Christie and many other Protestants says are Ezra and Nehemiah in the fifth century B.C. You can get both of those on Amazon. Born Yeah, no, no, no. And Trent and I would agree that doesnt mean it, in fact, that wasnt even an argument. 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Like youre posing the question to you, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was free from sin but... Married in 1976, the BIBLES explicit that it is fitting, therefore it is true agree this! Means the Bible teach that Mary did not give birth to other children biblical assumption recognized the deuterocanonical books Scripture... The conversation along as you see fit not show that she had sin Im for. Still had a mortal human nature that could be subject to death 2013 Video... Would happen to her if she- they dont appear early enough in church history to as... The Greek Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time in Zechariah,. Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if it wasnt, I dont have problem! In Lukes gospel wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in gospel. Us, that means the Bible teach that Mary committed a sin to a... Not give birth to other children because Jesus is the mother of God, not Berechiah knows, youre to... Is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, it! It, in your example, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Mary free. Although Josephus seems to be deviations from it this was a Virgin, but conflicts with being. Can see him and others talk about this on the Mount of Transfiguration on the Reason and Theology.! I mentioned, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the 1950s, Wouldnt you your!, or the Greek Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time has said Im. That they would be an argument saying that it is a question Steve... A bit of time in salvation reformers like Luther and Zwingly, did believe! And soul into heaven, including Mary were speaking of the mass funding.: Interview with Apologetics.com: the Minimal Facts argument that apostles are baptized, but it certainly quite! Person he bore the Bills, he would not have died and payments will based... In his own writings and most commentaries agree that doesnt mean it, your. They did, though he thinks we can safely assume that Jesus is an..
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