Other later Arab migrations in Iran include the mostly cross Gulf migrations of Arabs into Hormozgan and Fars provinces from modern day eastern Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States, post 16th century. She states that all we have are A few papyri, which are mainly private contracts, and thousands of graffiti scattered on the rocks, 90% of which contain only the name of the individual who wrote it, his fathers name, and a formulaic greeting. This bears enough similarity to the description of the Thamd dwellings in theQurn to induce certain authors to claim that they are the houses of the Thamd. We have no concrete evidence that Nabateans were destroyed. Now today, Thamudic ones have not remained and what is preserved are the Nabatean ruins, Assalam alikum I think what the people are trying to say is if I got this right is that the hadith says dont enter the homes houses of thamud so the verses makes it sound like the houses were still standing tall back then and some non muslims use this hadith to say the muhammad peace be upon him thought that these houses that were built by the thamud but that he got it wrong because these tombs were built by the nabtions not thamud and Ibn Kathir thought the same this is what I think they mean. Prophet Muhammad () descended from Ismail ( ), http://www.imgrum.org/media/1483126817820752683_724804649, http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/, The blind companion and killing of the concubine, Islamic identity of Rm (Rome) and Romans II, The Benefits of the Presence of Ambiguous Verses in the Quran, Islamic Stance on Astrology and its related Sciences. The Christians are claiming that the Qurans statement about Thamud carving structures in the hills and mountains is demonstrably false as the structures are built not by the Thamud but by the Nabateans, who came much later. Though one could argue that they knew of Salih and hence Allah could hold them responsible, but this is speculation. And you said the inside has to be bigger how big do you think it has to be inside like the inside of petra or smaller or bigger and how many rooms do you think there should of been or do you think the inside of madion al saleh is the right size sorry for all the questions but these are it then I wont ask any more questions Im justin putting them all so then thats it jazzakkallah, This is also part of 4. Finally, we should understand that Allah has no problem replacing one people with another. In addition to building gigantic structures, the Aad were also conquerors. [26] The Arab descendants of the original Arabian settlers who continue to speak Arabic as a first language currently form the single largest population group in North Africa. The same can be said about 7:84 where Allah SWT is telling us to SEE the end of Sodom and Gomorrah. When actual tribe of thamud perished it was the Amorites who are from Prophet Saleh pbuh, they are the original Hebrews. They built buildings on the land and also carved them in hills. When Allah sent their brother Salih (AS) to advise them of the true faith, they rejected him just like the Aad had rejected Hud before. Between the mountains were valleys with gardens and springs of water. They were able to build great structures and buildings, They had children to carry on their progeny. They may believe in Allah and may even worship Him in some ways. Thats all the Thamud had to do. Pickthall And (the tribes of) A'ad and Thamud! We must look at them, ponder over the signs of Allah and take heed. They were 6 meters tall! Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. Here is the summary of his opinion: ( ) which only proves that al-Hijr was also the land of the Thamud which is not a problem. Firstly, Ashab al-Hijr seem to be Thamud (15:80-85) because although this is the only time they are called this name, commentators unanimously agree that they are Thamud. Thamd, in ancient Arabia, tribe or group of tribes known to be extant from the 8th century bce to the 5th century ce. Please refer to the appropriate style manual or other sources if you have any questions. As such, missionaries and polemicists have claimed that the mistakes of Muslim folklore, or contradictory applications of the name Thamud to archaeological discoveries, suggest an historical mistake in the Quran. Ala-Maududi. We find ruins of so many past civilisations such as Indus Valley (Mohenjodaro, Harappa), Sodom, and so on. The facades vary in height and in the richness of their decorations. The following are four verses from Obadiah: 1 The vision of Obadiah. They are related to the Banu Abs tribe.[33]. . And Ad and Thamud as has been made clear from their dwellings. [17], Thamud is mentioned twenty-three times in the Quran as part of a moralistic lesson about God's destruction of sinful nations, a central motif in the Quran. 4) That the ORIGINAL dwellings in the valley were Thamuds but Nabateans built them further. (LogOut/ The Prophet ordered that the drinking water be split and the flour given to the camels, and he ordered them to drink the water from the well to which the she-camel (of Salih) had come. If we say Allah sent Nabateans a Messenger, then we would have to say that Allah sent them a Messenger WAY back (since there were no Prophets or Messengers between Isa and Muhammad (sall Allahu alayhim wa sallam) and only destroy them hundreds of years later. What we do know is that the Nabateans lived a nomadic life style. The Nabatean inscriptions are the ancient equivalent of graffiti, which humans even today have a predilection for. It seems we gonna have some proper analysis on this case, and Allah (as) knows best! How archeologists date the tombs and other structures is primarily based on the inscriptions found in them. We have no firm textual evidence as to where they went, but their pattern of rock carving survived for millennia among their successors in the area such as the Nabateans, the Dedanites, the Lihyanites who supplanted the Dedanites in Dedan in the last century BCE and 1st century CE and others. Just leave her alone. And indeed (their destruction) is clearly apparent to you from their (ruined) dwellings. Among such nations were the 'Ad and the Thamud, the Amalekites and the Himyar after them, the Tubbas, and the other South Arabian rulers (Adhwa). After all, camels were and still are pretty common in that part of the world. Omissions? Let us know if you have suggestions to improve this article (requires login). Beni Hassan defeated both Berbers and Black Africans in the region, pushing them southwards to the Senegal river while the Arab tribes settled in Mauritania. Yes both Ad and thamud left dwelling places as opposed to some other Nations mentioned in the Quran but again the reference is generic to many other Nations not mentioned in the book that came to other parts of the world etc. Because inscriptions cannot be relied upon with 100 percent certainty, its possible that the inscriptions are Nabatean while the structures are not. This is an article I recently wrote. It is very conceivable that those individuals who established this society became the pillars of the nation and their descendents took advantage of that and maintained a stranglehold on the wealth of the nation. Ad and Thamud were two great civilizations destroyed by God due to their excessive wickedness. 62-63]. However, now none may be visible and what is visible now are those made centuries later. It is large enough to house individuals, should they have chosen to live inside them. [27], The migration of Arab tribes to Mesopotamia began in the seventh century, and by the late 20th century constituted about three quarters of the population of Iraq. Mostafa Badawi, in his book Ancient Prophets of Arabiasays thatthe people ofThamdlived in the 8th century BCE in the al-Hijr region and were destroyed. where they used to live. 6. The crafts became abundant and firmly rooted. So youd then say that the buildings at Madain Salih were indeed originally Thamudic and then after that built upon by other nations? p.190. I think its just like 43:47, 21:12, 32:26 and 37:73. Accordingly, the Thamud were a powerful and idolatrous tribe living in Hegra, now called Madin li, the Cities of liin northwestern Arabia. Both groups of people were located on the Arabian Peninsula. While I think thats a response one could muster the fact is that we have no evidence whatsoever for that and it does not explain why the Prophet () would have referred to them as punished people. So Ill let that one go for another article and focus on the main discussion, the Aad and Thamud. [25], Some Islamic sources claim that the Banu Thaqif tribe, an Arab tribe from Ta'if in the period of Muhammad, was descended from a survivor of the Thamud (sometimes a slave of Salih). They also earned income by transporting goods and people in caravans pulled by domesticated camels across the desert. [15] A major source of income for these people was the taxation of caravans, and tributes collected from non-Bedouin settlements. The Nabataean kingdom existed from the 3rd or 2nd century BC, could it be that their punishment was a long one after a prophet was sent to them sometime before Prophet Isa AS? We should look at the original Arabic for word though to fully understand. The Thamd were known from contemporary sources to have occupied parts of the Hejaz region, and later Islamic tradition holds that they settled on the slopes of Mount Athlab. who occupy the heights of the hill. . However this would not explain why the Prophet () referred to the houses as Thamuds dwellings. Even if the prophet saw these exact structures which are visible today and we can, hypothetically, prove beyond a shadow of doubt that no one ever lived in them, and he took them to be the dwellings of the Thamud, that isnt a major problem. They are called "Skulls" because it is thought that the skull is the most important part of the body, and the majority of Arab tribes are descended from these major tribes.[37][38][39][40][41]. As for the wells, studies have shown that the Nabateans were experts in the field of irrigation and a lot of wells was attributed to them. How destroyed do you think the buildings were and does the hadith mean that there inside were not destroyed or could of they been destroyed as well or not. Their dwellings remained but very partially and make your home on the heights, We have to be open to the idea that a person living thousands of years ago will have a different concept of a place of dwelling than we, in the 21st century, do. But as is clear from the above discussion, Thamud were thriving as late as maybe the 4th century AD, while the people of Aad have left their final trails, only a few centuries before that. There is no special connection between these scripts and the tribe of Thamud. But as well see below, archaeological and literary records place them firmly in Northern Arabia/Jordan, well after the death of Jesus (33 AD). Honestly I dont understand the confusion at and all of it has been dealt with above. What the Prophet () and the Sahaba went through during Tabuk was overall the joint place of Thamud and Nabateans and more specifically the exact well from where the she-camel drank. Then, his progeny, and his people, came to be known by the name of ` Ad. There was a long period of royal authority and sedentary culture. The Quran and Sunnah do not identify any specific existing ruins as belonging to the first ancient tribe of Thamud, although some Muslim historians and popular folklore have done so. But before we get to that, lets analyze their responses. An envoy was sent to the nations to say, According to the Islamic tradition, the Thamd were warned by the prophet li to worship Allh, but the Thamd stubbornly refused and as a result were anni. Many centuries elapse before we find Thamud again in the textual record, though their name crops up many times in (undated) inscriptions throughout North Arabia. Thanks for the article and yea I see no problem. Replying by always staying what is the problem or what is the issue seems to have a rebuking or shaming tone that appears very harsh to the questioner. We do not take it as a science book and neither should we take it as a book of archaeology. you who say to yourself, Some sources say the time period of the Thamud, as mentioned in the Quran, was about four generations after the Aad. Rise, let us go against her for battle A report in the hadith collection of Bukhari makes this connection between Thamud and al-Hijr quite explicit. The leftover of Ad were taken and built over by Thamud. Umar reported that the people encamped along with Allahs Messenger () in the valley of Hijr, the habitations of Thamud, and they quenched their thirst from the wells thereof and kneaded the flour with it. Sargon II (d. 705 BC), the Assyrian emperor boasted of his conquest of Thamud in an 8th century inscription: The Thamudites, the (Ibadidites), the Marsimanites and the Khapayans, distant Arab tribes, who inhabit the desert, of whom no scholar or envoy knew, and who had never brought their tribute to the kings, my fathers, I slaughtered in the service of Assur, and transported what was left of them, setting them in the city of Samaria.. The story of Miraj- Isra _ Suhih al Bukhari, Can you brush your teeth in Ramadan? See the video here (arabic): https://youtu.be/yjRjkjQ-VEA, Me however I lean towards that Madain Saleh is not the place for the Quranic Thamud like Dr Thiaeb (linguist of ancient arabic and archeologist) has been repeatedly saying at least since 1995, because among other reasons that Madain Saleh lacks all the marks of Gods wrath, the earth quake levelling Thamud etc. I am sure that is not the intention but it may appear like that. Several other inscriptions bearing the namesAad and Iram have been discovered in Jordan. Allah says: `Say, O Muhammad, to these idolators who disbelieve in the message of truth that you have brought: If you turn away from that which I have brought to you from Allah, then I warn you of the punishment of Allah like the . Unfortunately, both nations rejected their prophets. [3] As the "Ta-mu-di", the peoples are mentioned together with the Ephah, the "Ibadidi", and the "Marsimani" as part of "the distant desert-dwelling Arabs who knew neither overseers nor officials and had not brought their tribute to any king". The Rashaida of Sudan and Eritrea live in close proximity with the Beja people. 11. Indeed, we see in you foolishness and indeed, we think you are of the liars.Chapter 7, Verse 66, Have you come to us that we should worship Allah and leave what our fathers worshiped? As their material wealth increased so, too, did their evil ways while their virtue decreased. It is not specific to the 2 Arab tribes. [pp. Heres how Allah describes their punishment. It is not a revealed book any more and hence, we are not bound to believe in a few thousand year old civilization our scriptures do not mention any such thing. They are mentioned in the Quran as examples of civilizations that Allah had destroyed because of their sins and as signs of the fleeting nature of the worldly power. Heavy contact with Romans resulted in us having a pretty decent record of its territories and people. After giving birth, the camel drank all the water from a well every two days and then produced enormous amounts of milk for the people. So, basically during the time of the Prophet (), their remains were not on the surface and only some of them were visible. Most of the monuments and inscriptions of the archaeological site of Al-Hijr date from the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE. [29] The second Arab tribal migration to northern Mesopotamia was in the 10th century when the Banu Numayr migrated there. The arguments against the Quran and Hadith are as follows: Al-Hijr Archaeological Site (Madin Slih) UNESCO World Heritage Centre. The Aad and Thamud were both located in the northwestern part of modern day Saudi Arabia near the border of Jordan. The Thamud did not worship God, and were disobedient. Thus, Nabataeans later reused the rocks and made them to graves. Thamd, li, al-ijr, Gods She-camel, Arabia and the Arabs by Robert Hoyland, Professor of Late Antique and Early Islamic Middle Eastern History at New York Universitys Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, pg 68. 41.13-18 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir. The earliest known mention of this new 'Thamud' in historical sources is is a 715 BC inscription of the Assyrian king Sargon II, which mentions them as being among the people of eastern and central Arabia subjugated by the Assyrians. [Qur'an . Thamud were destroyed The Arabs on the Iranian side of the Gulf tend to speak a dialect much closer to Gulf Arabic opposed to the Khuzestani Arabic which is closer to Iraqi Arabic. The people led wealthy excessive lives, built grand buildings, both on the plains, and carved into the hills. As I mentioned in our discussion on your post regarding Gog and Magog, I was very interested to read your reply to the missionary accusation regarding Thamud, because the argument seems to be rather recent and it seems to at least on its surface have good argumentation and hence we as Muslims must develop countermeasures. (2/434), As for the related Hadith reports related to the incident during the Tabuk expedition they either do not mention Thamud by name or say. Wadi al-Qura, refer to the article above. And they used to deny Our Ayat! It would be unsurprising then, to find them in the archaeological/literary records related to ancient Arabia. There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger .
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